055: Don’t Be Pushed Off a Cliff by Legacy Systems: Part One

Steve Glisky: 

Welcome to the Paperless Productivity podcast, where we have experts give you the insight, know-how and resources to help you transform your workplace from paper to digital, all while making your work life better at the same time. 

Paul Gorman:

Thanks for joining me today. My name is Paul Gorman, your host for today’s podcast. Today’s discussion is a collaboration between two people who have over 40 years of state and government experience, where we will be providing government CEOs, non-government CEOs, well, frankly, anybody in the IT space, the roadmap to replace a legacy system. Today’s episode will focus on the ERP system, by ERP system, we’re really talking about those major financial systems or line of business systems that kind of run the agencies. Those are the systems that everyone tends to dread having to replace. Together Terri Jones and I will provide you real world examples, considerations, and benefits to help propel a CIO’s initiatives forward.

Without further ado, I’d like to introduce my friend and Highland Software’s Enterprise Advisor, Terri Jones. So, welcome, Terri.

Terri Jones:

Thanks so much, Paul. It’s so nice for us to be able to talk about this topic of legacy systems because when you and I were directing IT efforts for our governmental agencies, we had to answer a lot of these questions.

I worked in a large housing agency with a number of mission critical systems that talked to our primary funders that kept track of our accomplishments as we invested state and federal dollars. And of course, then I had my end users and so much of my work was related to that impact and looking at how they were going to respond to a legacy system replacement, as well as balancing out, how do I make that decision? How do I get funding and justification for that? And how, and why would I be doing it?  I mean, sometimes we did it because honestly the system was failing, but there’s a number of other benefits. And I think it’ll be great for us to have this conversation because I think we can talk through some of the things that can really take a CEO’s IT initiatives forward, even as we’re doing this really hard thing, which is replacing a legacy system.

Paul Gorman:

Yeah. When I think about replacing legacy systems, I think about the impacts in your experience, what, what would you say are some of the typical impacts that you have to factor into replacing a legacy system?

Terri Jones:

Yeah, well, I mean, when you’re replacing legacy system, you’re kind of in a spot where you probably have to do something, so affecting lots of other systems. You have to keep your servers in alignment, as far as their operating systems, their database systems, the security pieces. Sometimes you’re going to bring in a new system. You’ve got to set a business practices and processes that people are very comfortable doing.

But the new system or the old system was incompatible when we have to change things and really have to think through how the business process that everyone feels comfortable is going to be affected. We’re replacing legacy systems because we can’t support and maintain them anymore, which could be because we no longer have the expertise in house, or honestly that expertise no longer exists.

Maybe it’s coded in a programming language that nobody learns anymore. We do have to think about desirable functionality and during the time that you and I had started our IT careers to where we are now, the functionality that is considered default or sort of table stakes has really changed. And so, we have to think about that kind of impact.

We often get forced into this conversation because the vendor is no longer going to support it. So, that’s a problem for us that of course has to be addressed immediately. And there’s still always the end-user piece of that equation. You could have people with institutional memory who are retiring. You can have that kind of double problem of longtime veterans who do a great job and new people who have different expectations about what a system should offer.

So, you have to balance out the end user impact, but you’re going to have to do something, when support isn’t there, when people are retiring, when you don’t have the right functionality anymore, when you can’t maintain it. I mean, these are the things that just force us right to the cliff.

Paul Gorman:

Yeah. I have been there as well. When I look at the way to approach a legacy system, what, what that decision is going to be, I find for myself, it tends to vary. I mean, I’m more apt to look at replacement on a legacy system in different instances. , when I think through the types of systems and how I would classify them I would say you have one type of system that is going to be so majorly disruptive. That’s your ERP or your primary financial system or line of business system. That system, you know, you’re going to have to get pushed to the edge of the cliff. As you’d say, before you go there.  I would view some of the other systems like a document management system, a decision regarding a legacy system is different or a point solution is very different in terms of the decision-making that you’re going to have as a CIO as to when and whether to  address replacement systems like a document management system, a decision regarding a legacy system is different or a point solution is very different in terms of the decision-making that you’re going to have as a CIO as to when and whether to  address replacement.

How would you address? I mean, legacy systems are really, the most problematic of them is the ERP financial system and line of business system. But how would you actually go about addressing that?

Terri Jones:

Well that, of course, as you said, I think that’s the biggest lift of any kind of legacy system.

And I think there’s a couple of very important points that have to be made for CIO’s that cycle of evaluating, planning, design, deployment, cut-over, data migration, all that stuff. That’s a long cycle. And if you add to that procurement that you and I were familiar with in government, that’s an even longer cycle.

It’s a three to five-year cycle. And I think, a mistake that we can make as a CIO is not to make sure that people from top to bottom in the organization are fully briefed about what this looks like. I think the mistake we can make in our own minds is not to recognize that we’re going to be back in that same place, probably in five years where we’re going to have to take a hard look at that financial system.

And as many people would say, you can’t really be undertaking this huge effort to change to something that is ultimately going to be better. If your old system is just limping along and you’re really spinning a lot of cycles to replace it. So, this idea that you’re always maintaining, but also looking for the next technology tools or extensions or enhancements or upgrades or whatever’s going to happen is I think of critical one for the CIO as leader to communicate to the organization and actually to say to themselves and just accept that ,that’s the case.

Paul Gorman:

I think that’s a very good answer. I mean,  what I think about some of the things that can happen during that three to five year period, when you’re trying to replace a system, it essentially disrupts more than just the IT world. You have disruptions happening in the program areas as well.

It’s very difficult for a program area to launch a new business initiative. If the primary system behind it is isn’t going to be available or is in the process of replacement. So, it has this cascading effect throughout an organization as well. If you were putting a plan together for something like this, what, what would your plan look like? How would you a high level? I know we can’t really graph things out in detail this way, but what would your plan in general look like?

Terri Jones:

I think that’s a great topic of conversation. I have this theory that if I’m a CIO, that’s going to put my agency through this kind of a moment that I want to look at roadblocks that we have generally in our organizations that I can bring to the discussion of replacement. First of all, to make it easier for my organization to understand and accept the value in undertaking, what is a difficult process. And then secondly, because when I bring the new system in, I would like it not to just be sort of an upgrade. You know, I had this kind of system this year and it’s 2021. So, I’m getting that system 2021. I would like it to address some of our big roadblocks. And in doing that, I think we can at least build the support for what is a difficult path that we have to do.

So, I’m always concerned about data silos. We know that data-driven decision-making in government is very important. And we know that a lot of times our end-users spend a lot of time trying to generate reports and to get an overarching look at the impact that our agency is having. So, I want to look at data silos and bring my agency to a better place about how to get to the information that helps us know that we’re making an impact. I want to get rid of paper processes because this is the greatest inefficiency moment that we will have in government. And it there’s a cascading effect, you mentioned the phrase cascading effect. Using paper means that you have to handle paper. You have to mail paper; you have to file paper. You have to print paper; you have to do data entry from paper.

This is not where we should be spending our time to get better program and service delivery. And it leads to other issues like processing errors and maybe delays because we have to get the data that is held by that piece of paper, into systems. That’s a delay, and sometimes data is an entered correctly. So, we get errors.

And when we’re using paper to drive our process, that piece of paper comes to my inbox. And that’s the triggering event for me to take a next step in my process. We have a lack of process transparency, whether that’s to the leadership who would like to see how things are moving to the agency or our own colleagues and our immediate supervisor, who would like to understand how much workload we’re handling. We’d like to understand if there are backlogs, would like to understand if there are training needs based on how a process is moving. But in all of that, I think there’s a couple of other really important pieces when we look at the relationship between the IT resources and leadership staff that we have in our agency and our business users. In this conversation, and maybe even ERP system replacement has caused a lot of business in IT tension. And by that, I mean, business expects our, IT staff to deliver faster than we really can, or then we have in the last few years. And so, what happens is that tension produces

And that may in effect create a sprawl of IT solutions and trigger a set of additional tasks that IT will have to do because we have attention maybe with our business users. Maybe we can’t deliver a project quickly, or they’ve been disappointed by the timeline they buy on their own. And then they complicate our IT structure in our agency. Meaning that we have to spend more time to support things. We may have weird security things that happen, and we end up and wake up some day and we’ve got many more applications running in our agency that we didn’t have any input into selecting.

Paul Gorman:

So, there’s a whole collection of roadblocks that range from how we get our work done to how we plan and move forward with our IT infrastructure. And I think when you do this kind of legacy ERP system, look, you have to chance to address these through a set of things, which you know, will probably talk about.

That’s a long list. I mean, there’s a lot, a lot that goes into what that plan has to look like. But I’m intrigued by one of the things that you mentioned. You know, in my experience, since the 1990s, the business cycle has essentially accelerated at an impossible pace, at least impossible, from the IT perspective, technology deployments can’t keep pace with the speed that business operates.

So that’s, that’s where I see a lot of that tension coming in, causing everyone to go out and buy their own point solution or, you know, a system that directly addresses just one little part of the business process. So, it’s when IT can’t respond quickly enough, that businesses tend to take matters into their own hands.

And in a sense, you really can’t blame them, they’re just really trying to put something in place, to address their, to address their business needs. So, one of the things that you mentioned was the inefficiency that happens as the sprawl develops and it’s bad for IT, but it’s also not the best thing for the business unit. So, the organization as a whole. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? How is it bad?

Terri Jones:

I think that is a good conversation, because again, we’re going to have to build value as CIO’s to go back to leadership and really say, we need to be a part of any conversation that revolves around investing in IT. But I think we know that duplication is expensive. If, if we’re buying systems that have little pieces, parts, that has a staff implication and it creates silos of information. So, what can happen is we’re replacing our legacy system, we knew we had silos that was the old way of doing things. We’re smarter now in government. And all of a sudden, we wake up someday and there’s 400 to 1,000 crazy applications in, in an agency. And data is in little pieces everywhere.

Paul Gorman:

I can’t imagine trying to manage an organization with a thousand different applications. That’s, that’s, that’s got some really bad, really bad vibes for me. It just increases the likelihood the security disaster, the policy blunder it’s grossly inefficient.  I see it as more of a self-defeating almost environment when you get to that point.

Terri Jones:

I think so. And I think it is impossible for even the best trained IT staff, to understand the permutations of security, the web services flying around, you know, how many things are going through the firewall.

I mean, these are just all really difficult things. And I remember another conversation. I think it was a County, who had invested in a tool to crawl through their County networks, to get a better inventory of all the applications that were in place. And that tool was able to tell them how often the executables. So, in other words, launching the program had taken place. And, and they found hundreds of applications that were still on the books, possibly still had maintenance being paid that people hadn’t opened in years and they represented a more fragmented kind of structure of purchasing where IT wasn’t necessarily involved in the selection. Maybe purchase before we were locked down more, as we often are with security. And so, this is, they wake up and they have a thousand applications. And the crazy thing was it can make it through that maintenance is still being paid on these things maybe at more of a departmental level. But again, that’s duplication, it’s expensive. We’re spending money that we so seldom have on things that nobody is using. So the conversation about IT sprawl is in my opinion, directly related to our ability to deliver value as fast as possible when we do things like an ERP system, because all of that other stuff is additional, maintenance support dollars and staff that should be focused on changing this very important system that we have.

Paul Gorman:

If you were tackling an organization that was in that condition, what would you do? Where would you start?

Terri Jones:

Wow. So now we’ve gotten to the harder questions. Well obviously we’re talking a little bit about re-syncing the strategy, the goal can’t just be replacement of this ERP, but to do some of the things we’re talking about to really have a transformative digital strategy, to understand where we are at this moment in technology, you have to simplify the environment.

And you don’t want to create a new set of support issues by multiplying the number of applications and solutions in the organization. So I think of big goal of this is to use this exercise of changing an ERP to reduce and simplify your benefit, and your impact, and your support, and your maintenance and all of these things, by making sure that people understand the implications of having duplicative applications and having those applications far out, number your IT staff.

Paul Gorman:

That’s amazing. You know, just thinking through it, where would you start?

Terri Jones:

You know, I am going to think a little bit about the content silos. I think, well, the process of replacing the ERP can take a bit of time. You can use content services or as you, and I know because we’re a little older enterprise content management or ECM to help your current ERP, the one that you’re going to replace sort of limp along as you begin the procurement evaluation, planning, all the other cycles that we’re going to have to do to get rid of that ERP.

So I am suggesting that you consider some of the classic tools in an ECM or content services platform to help you get better feature and functionality, even as you’re going to your sort of next gen ERP.

Paul Gorman:

If you were to list out, I mean, just off the top of your head, what content solutions exist in a typical contents platform that you could use during this replacement cycle?

Terri Jones:

Yes. Well, there’s, there’s well, let’s talk about four or five just to kind of make it simple. I mean, a good content services platform offers a lot of things. First of all, it’s the document management piece and particularly integration tools, low code integration tools to make the application, what you might call document aware, meaning that the, the interaction of staff between the documents that we know often drive a government process. And the data that we often have to enter that we use in our financial systems can really stand shoulder to shoulder and the user experience of moving between them to do their work is more seamless. So, integration tools very important.

And you integrate your ECM or content services platform to your ERP. And one of the reasons you do that is because if your ERP has minimal automation to sort of route and do approvals. You want to use the workflow engines and technology that an ECM or content services platform has because not only can you speed things up because you can begin to eliminate paper and routing times you can begin to re-engineer a business process to reduce the paper.

Even as you’re looking at your next ERP, I think a thing that’s breaking, that’s going to be so dramatic for government is robotic process automation technologies, and their ability ultimately to automate manual processes that we have to do in government regarding data that really do not need a human.

So, we can teach an RPA bot to just go in there, click this open this, verify this, grab that data, do that, and it can run 24/7. So this is going to be a game changer in government because I’ve always believed that ECM and content services and now RPA offered the ability to take our staff time, our program staff who are focused on making an impact to re allocate their time to the things that humans can do to make the program more effective. And that is not all the clicking and data entry and things like that. So that is a game changer.

Paul Gorman:

That’s changing everybody into a knowledge worker is what it does.

Terri Jones:

Exactly. Exactly. And when you look at public policy conversations, people talk about relieving the data entry and manual stuff, because it’s hard to recruit people in the government and it’s hard for them to find the time to look for ways to be more innovative in how we do the program delivery, which is the stuff away from our desk away from our keyboard.

There’s a couple of thoughts around case management that I think are important. And when I say case management, as it relates to content services, I’m looking for a low code platform that allows us to design data process and document centric activities, and combine them into an application that can be designed and be more responsive to what we do very specifically at our particular agency.

To do that in an ECM platform that you’re already using to get rid of documents means that you are doing that reduction strategy that we’ve been talking about because you’re building it in one platform. So, looking for those content services platforms that have a case code, we have the ability to change that time to value equation that is going to trouble us otherwise. And case management technologies in things like APIs and other ways to integrate stuff means that we can make a user interface that is meaningful for us, meaningful for our programs that are running meaningful for that end user.

And we can make that user interface still be wrapped around a single core content services or ECM platform. So again, we are giving more responsiveness and the user interface. The very thing that is so tempting about all those point solutions that business units might go out and buy on their own. We can bring that into our agency if we can find our content services platform that gives us this kind of case management flexibility in a low code environment. So, we’ve got time to value, we’ve got automation, we’ve got better document management kind of capabilities. And if these can be bundled around your existing legacy ERP, then we can keep that going long enough to live through our own procurement cycles.

Paul Gorman:

That’s a great strategy going forward. I mean, I, I could definitely see that. When you look at this this type of a solution and you’re considering replacing ERP or major system like that. What role would that system play? I mean, you’re, you’re ultimate goal is to have your ERP system swapped out for a new one. What’s the content system going to do going forward?

Terri Jones:

Yeah, I think that’s a very interesting question because as CIO’s you know, we, we look for a handful of the key solutions that agencies typically implement. And I don’t think in a, a few years ago that ECM necessarily stood there as an essential layer.

But what I think about the transformation in the underlying architecture of systems that were ones called ECM that are now called content services is it’s a platform. And it’s got a tool chest with, with, you know, web services, and restful layers, and APIs, and integration tools. And so, it really can be an integrated information location and every solution or product that you’re buying for your agency can be connected to that central core. And even though the reliance on papers may be moved a little bit in government, the paradigm of a document or record is going to be with us. So, it makes sense that things that preserve those records in whatever format that they’re in would be at the center.

But we also have to think about how we’re going to digitize stuff. So, capturing content early in a process and close to the customer so that it moves through the organization digitally is part of a digital transformation strategy. And that’s really why content services has to be at the center. It’s a common content layer, a single definitive information source for our agency. So, in the future, it lets you do all kinds of magic. You can create web-based solutions connect them to the content repository. And you’ve just gotten rid of a set of paper silos or content silos, and now you’ve got electronic ones. And so I think the goal is to make sure that everybody in your agency can have a complete view of the data and documents and other things that hold information so that you are able to , bring better policy decisions to your agency through a smarter IT strategy. And you’ve really done this because you’re content core, is a central layer. So even if you have business applications that are dealing with data, when you have a single content core, you can use some of the newer pieces of that to bring together the data in a better way.

So, I think the content system, whatever you’re using for content services has to be a requirement for going forward ERP replacement. Meaning that the ERP you select has to be able to be integrated to your content repository. And I think that’s just so essential because remember right now you’re going to limp along with your ECM or content services, extending the value of the current ERP, but someday you’ll be in that place again. And that content services platform is going to help you extend the life of that too. So, I mean, it’s a good thing to think about. And, and I think, you know, you’ll have to look at your workflow processes to address data and documents as you do this. And, and just, we should be doing this anyway because of digital transformation needs and the expectations that our customers and constituents have.

Paul Gorman:

That’s an, that’s an interesting point about the addressing the workflow processes. But what do you mean when you, when you speak about data, workflow processes versus doc processes?

Terri Jones:

Yeah, I think this is a situation where you and I, Paul, have been in government long enough to see a lot of things change.

But when you look at an ERP solution a point solution or your, your core data systems, the paradigm has changed. I think things are no longer really linear. I think that the types of content that we’re using in processes has changed and because the paradigm is different. It’s trickier to go out into the marketplace thinking just about data, because there is nearly no government job, that’s just a data job. There are all these other things and, you know, business processes require documents as well as, and sometimes instead of data objects. And if you look at an ERP that has would just a data kind of paradigm in mind, it can trick you into going down a path where you’re not thinking about the human activity that moves the processes along.

I can buy an ERP that has a record for every payment that I have made. But the audit requirements for my agency are also going to require me to show how that purchase was properly approved per our policies, per our state laws, per our federal regulations. And so, the struggle of getting an ERP to bridge that process procedural approval kind of workflow stuff.

In every case of how we spend money in government is a difficult problem. There could be a misalignment of systems and your ERP needs to be extended by the kind of workflow automation that can ensure that not only do you have the data on how you spent it, but the way you spent it was appropriate for whatever your mission is and whoever your funders are. And I think that’s a role for your central content solution. And it’s also important because the content services platforms that are available now allow you to evolve and adjust business processes either because you’ve thought of a better way. Or at the moment when you end up inheriting another mandate or another law has been passed or that the legislature has done something, the capability and nimbleness of an ERP solution versus our current content services kinds of platforms is also critical for you to think about because we very seldom stand still in government. Just this week I was working with an organization that completely changed its procurement processes and levels of approval at what dollars amounts. And now they have to go and change their ERP solution and reflect that. That is a place you don’t want to be in, which is why having data and document workflows using content services to manage the workflow piece can be so practical when you have to deliver time to value and when you have to change what you’re doing.

Paul Gorman:

That’s very good advice there. One of the things that I’ve seen recently, and I’m working with an agency now, that has a very large remote workforce providing a very specific governance function. Although I will tell you, given the pandemic, there’s an awful lot of more remote workforces, aren’t there?  How would you address a remote workforce, in this kind of an environment?

Terri Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting because we’ve been in our respective agencies. We know it made me when we were first starting out and we would say, well, we could get rid of this paper and people would look at you like you are crazy.

And now as you say, sadly, because of the pandemic, it’s it forced a rethinking of the process. And I think it’s maybe shaken loose some of the last sort of resistance to this idea of digital transformation. And I think the way content services and its tools are accessed can really transform processing time field work, work when disconnected working from different locations and, and even the ability to customize the user experience to the work they do.

And the information that they need to see. And that has to be part of considering solutions and tools. You absolutely positively have to consider your end user experience and the interface, its flexibility, its ability to focus their attention. Now you have to do that now because we have so many apps on our phones that are so much more responsive.

It’s an additional burden for us based on expectations there. And you want to be sure your procurement process, that your ERP solution and your content services solutions are working together. And that they’re accessible from a variety of locations in platforms, because frankly, we may have to adjust. And frankly, we may have decided that we’re going to allow many more people to work from home than ever happened in the days of , you know, we called it telecommuting when I started. And it was, it was quite a process to get permission to do that. And I think we’re over that now. So, that means your procurement process has to consider your ability to do that. And we should have done that anyway, because we needed to be ready for business continuity reasons, for security reasons, for you know events that may cause us to have to work from home, there are weather events. There’s, there’s all kinds of reasons why we might need to do that, and we need to have a continuity plan in place. So, I think it’s essential that that kind of thought process is included in your move forward for replacing a legacy system.

Paul Gorman:

That’s a very valid point. I think a lot of us had gotten complacent in the way we thought our work was going to be performed going forward. And I think a lot of that complacency has been shaken loose.

We’re going to talk about later a little bit about how to replace and approach legacy point solutions, but you had talked early on about simplifying the environment. What, what does it mean to you to simplify your IT environment?

Terri Jones:

You know, besides the word survival and by survival, I mean, you know, being able to deliver value as quickly as possible. But you’re going to have to stand up data and document workflows. You’re going to be augmenting and replacing processes, and you’re going to need to free resources from support duties. So, it’s like a balancing act that you’re going to have to do. So, the more systems you can reduce, the fewer, your resources get tied up to support it, or even, you know, request to enhance it, perhaps from the business unit that you’re working with. In an ideal IT environment, you have no duplication, you understand the capabilities and how it delivers value to the programs and services that you are responsible for. And I think getting as close as possible to that ideal environment has to be a goal. So you don’t want to start over with a thousand different places to put content or, you know, digital documents with, you know, static links attaching to a data record that’s in this silo here and that silo there.

But when you start with a lot of content services, systems or little document management systems that’s a pretty good place to start for reduction and simplification. Because as you’re making this transformation on a, on a key system, you can certainly bring day forward stuff into the new situation that you’re going to have, which is ideally an integrated ERP to your content services platform. And you know, you just do the math, if each system in your environment requires a minimum of four hours a month, get rid of 10 or so. I mean, you’re starting to save the number of hours that equals an entire FTE. And if you’re able to free up an entire FTE in six months, you might even be able to do two a year. If you do two FTEs, I mean, you get the math. But I think when you’re starting to free up those FTEs, because you’ve made kind of a strong statement about duplication and then ultimately simplifying your environment. You’re going to be a lot more popular in the management team. And when you do things like that, you’re also going to be able to bring value to your agency faster.

And if you can even do just a little bit more and add things like remote mobile access, get some integration with all that kind of crazy unstructured communication and content that goes on in our agencies. And you’re able to update your business process workflows so that you’re supporting any compliance activities. You’re moving through a process faster. So, your customers are happy. You’ve eliminated extra staff work. So, your end users are happy. These are all things you can deliver faster if you’re not supporting multiple systems that do essentially the same thing.

Paul Gorman:

That was an incredible tour de force there, I have to say. Terri, I’m extremely impressed, you’ve thought through this.  In my experience with, with the ERPs I dread the idea of having to go through a replacement, but now you’ve made me feel like I missed out on something. Yeah. Looks like it would be an opportunity perhaps even to start addressing some of the other issues that may be in the organization and take advantage of  that cycle to you know, set yourself up for a very, very beneficial future.

Terri Jones:

Yeah, this is one of the hardest conversations I think any CIO would have. I mean, the ERP, when, when you propose this conversation, I was frankly, a little scared, but I think the way to get over that fear is to see it for the opportunity that it is ,your ability to bring more functionality to your agency. And at the same time through some careful selection put yourself in a better place to lead your team, to bring more value faster. And if we can do that value faster thing, we will be able to get more resources to do any number of digital transformation projects. So, it’s an opportunity that’s what I think.

Paul Gorman:

Terri, I think that was very helpful to everybody.

Terri Jones:

I think, you can tell that it’s a passionate thing for me, how we bring technology to our work in government, because what we do is so important every day. And I want everyone that works in a government agency to have the best tools they can, and to have a really high functioning, innovative IT team, supporting them. So, we can do great things.

Paul Gorman:

Thank you, Terry. And I’d like to thank you for taking the time and sharing your experiences with us. This was very, very beneficial just to hear someone bringing it all together like this. I think for our listeners would be extremely beneficial.

Terri Jones:

Thanks for the opportunity, Paul.

Paul Gorman:

If you’d like to learn a little bit more about ImageSoft, please visit nathana12.sg-host.com. And if you get a chance, I recommend you visit our new state agency webpage, its nathana12.sg-host.com/government/state agencies.

This concludes the podcast for today, and I hope you guys have a great day.

Steve Glisky: 

Thanks again for joining us on this podcast. To learn more about ImageSoft, please visit nathana12.sg-host.com. That’s ImageSoft I-N-C.com. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to subscribe to Paperless Productivity, where we capture some of the biggest paper-based pain points facing organizations today. We’ll see you next time.